| 1 "Nathan Skinner" |
CHAOS | woensdag 13 maart 2002 21:38 |
| 2 "JosephShore23" |
Re: CHAOS | donderdag 14 maart 2002 8:03 |
| 3 "Nathan Skinner" |
Re: CHAOS | zaterdag 16 maart 2002 7:00 |
| 4 "Nicolaas Vroom" |
Re: CHAOS | zondag 17 maart 2002 12:19 |
I'm wondering if chaos really exists. I feel it made simply be our small minds trying to work out something whose pattern is far beyond our realm of thought.
Simplified example:
Do you know the board with a whole bunch of pegs in it and it's placed
vertically and balls get dropped. Initially, the ball acts
chaotically. It can take any path and it place at the end,
individually is completely random. There's no way to predict it.
However, after a while a pattern of the infamous bell curve emerges
and we see it was not chaotic as a system.
-Nathan Skinner
In article <4539bdcf.0203131238.2f8a2943@posting.google.com>, skinner109@yahoo.com (Nathan Skinner) writes:
| > |
I'm wondering if chaos really exists. I feel it made simply be our
small minds trying to work out something whose pattern is far beyond
our realm of thought.
Simplified example: Do you know the board with a whole bunch of pegs in it and it's placed vertically and balls get dropped. Initially, the ball acts chaotically. It can take any path and it place at the end, individually is completely random. There's no way to predict it. However, after a while a pattern of the infamous bell curve emerges and we see it was not chaotic as a system. -Nathan Skinner |
The ball falls to the bottom contiuously in a random fashion, not ultimately,
and it never does so chaotically. And what's so infamous about the bell curve
except if you were on the wrong part of it in school? The bell curve, in any
case, is not a result of choas.
JS
thanks for all your disparaging remarks. I'm sure they have made you famous with your friends. You can only sound more ignorant to deny something with as much significance as the bell curve that shows up more than its share in nature. If you don't have anything to add to a conversation, stay out. Don't waste your time pestering high-schoolers on science newsgroups.
josephshore23@aol.com (JosephShore23) wrote in message news:<20020314020353.10391.00000245@mb-cm.aol.com>...
| > | In article <4539bdcf.0203131238.2f8a2943@posting.google.com>, skinner109@yahoo.com (Nathan Skinner) writes: |
| > > |
I'm wondering if chaos really exists. I feel it made simply be our small minds trying to work out something whose pattern is far beyond our realm of thought. Simplified example: Do you know the board with a whole bunch of pegs in it and it's placed vertically and balls get dropped. Initially, the ball acts chaotically. It can take any path and it place at the end, individually is completely random. There's no way to predict it. However, after a while a pattern of the infamous bell curve emerges and we see it was not chaotic as a system. -Nathan Skinner |
| > |
The ball falls to the bottom contiuously in a random fashion, not ultimately,
and it never does so chaotically. And what's so infamous about the bell curve
except if you were on the wrong part of it in school? The bell curve, in any
case, is not a result of choas. |
"Nathan Skinner"
That is an interesting question.
You can also ask similar questions:
The first step, if you want to answer those questions, is that you
clearly must define what you mean i.e. the word chaos.
Let me start with an example.
You drop a second ball.
Instead of a round ball use cubes on a rough surface.
What will happen?
In stead round balls use sand.
What will happen?
In stead of sand use something else
and observe if you see avalanches.
All the above examples are physical processes.
In stead of your general question: Is their chaos
You can also ask specific questions:
Each star has a rather similar behaviour.
The star is born (out of a gas cloud), planets form,
the star matures, explodes and becomes a white dwarf.
(something like that..)
One thing what you can do is to simulate the behaviour
of the planets using a model.
On the other hand in general by performing and improving experiments
we can improve our knowledge and produce new and better products.
Still there are many issues and questions we will never be able to answer.
Do you know the board with a whole bunch of pegs in it and it's placed
vertically and balls get dropped.
My question to you:
Back to my home page Contents of This Document
>
I'm wondering if chaos really exists.
If you do a search with google: Butterfly Chaos
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&q=Butterfly+chaos
you will find many hits.
For example:
http://www.mindconnection.com/_links/lnkchaostheory.htm
That means for many people it makes sense.
Is there uncertainty (Does it exists)
Is there Brownian movement (Does it exist)
You drop with a machine from a fixed height
an "absolute" round ball on an "absolute" flat surface.
What will happen?
Your ball wil bounce a couple of times and will come to rest
straight under the place where it was dropped.
What will happen?
The second ball will "fly" almost in any direction.
The first ball will "roll" almost in any direction.
If you do it carefull you can build a tower.
You will build a sandpile.
If you do it for a long time you will see avalanches
along the sides of your sandpile.
My line of reasoning is that by performing experiments
you can try to understand them, predict the future
and by making modifications (to the real world)
you can change the outcome.
Is our solar system chaotic?
(Is their chaos within our solar system)
Are stars chaotic ?
Are galaxies chaotic ?
Is the universe chaotic ?
One very important parameter is the mass of a star.
For a star of our Sun this process takes 10 billion years
we are now at the middle point (+ or - something)
Can you call that total process chaotic ?
Can you call a small section of that process chaotic ?
(The last 5000 years on our planet ?)
For example: Newton's Law or GR.
Now you enter the realm of mathematics.
How ever you have to be carefull:
The outcome of your computations have to be in agreement
(if possible) with observations.
Second your model can be a simplified case of the reality
as such predictions into the future have to be handled with care.
In relation to chaos I will not answer this question.
>
I feel it made simply be our
small minds trying to work out something whose pattern is far beyond
our realm of thought.
Yes
>
Simplified example:
The path of each ball, in the area where the pegs are, each time is
different.
>
Initially, the ball acts chaotically.
Yes.
>
It can take any path and it place at the end, individually is completely random.
Yes
>
There's no way to predict it.
Correct.
Your point of course is that the behaviour of each indivudual item
is completely different as the behavior of the whole.
>
However, after a while a pattern of the infamous bell curve emerges
and we see it was not chaotic as a system.
However each time when you perform this experiment the outcome
will be (macroscopic) different.
If you perform this ^identical^ experiment 1000 times
do you learn then something ?
IMO the answer is NO.
If you want to learn something than you have to change the "settings".
Created: 24 March 2002